A few days ago Mark Bruzonsky, Chairperson of The Committee On The Middle East (COME), was extensively interviewed on the Pacifica Radio Program "Democracy Now" about:

            *  Secretary of State Madeleine Albright
            *  U.S. Policies in the Middle East
            *  Iraq
            *  The Israel/Jewish Lobby in Washington

Moderator (Amy Goodwin):

    "Today we're going to take a look at the first Secretary of State, formerly the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations. We're joined right now in our Washington studio at Pacifica station WPFW by Mark
Bruzonsky, director of the Committee on the Middle East; he's a former Washington representative of the World Jewish Congress, and founder and chairperson of the Committee on the Middle East. He's been a consultant on Middle East for, among others, the Congressional Quarterly, National Geographic Society, and the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars at the Smithsonian.
 
    We're  also joined  by Martha Burke. Martha Burke is editor of Feminist Faxnet, and president of the Center for the Advancement of Public Policy. She joins us on the telephone.
 
    Well, let's start off with Mark Bruzonsky, with the Committee on the Middle East. Mark, can you tell us your response, first of all, to this latest news about the Dutch prime minister saying that, in fact, despite the fact that Madeleine Albright suggested otherwise, that at least Holland has not changed its view, or the
Netherlands has not changed its view, of Iraq, and will not support a U.S. attack.

Bruzonsky: "Well, Good Morning, Amy. You know I've been in  Washington almost twenty years -- since graduate school. I've been to the Middle East 150 times. The level of misleading statements, the level of
duplicity, the level of manipulating the American people has never been higher. And in a sense, in my view, Madeleine Albright is the perfect representation of the Clinton administration: she does something very similar with our foreign policy, in terms of misrepresenting reality, just like our president  misrepresents much reality from the White House, especially his own. Let me just give you a quote, for instance, from Madeleine Albright just a week ago when she was in the Arab world--she actually said this publicly. She said: "Today I can report to you that the United States, Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and the Palestinian Authority are of one mind on this crisis."

You don't even have to be a Middle East expert to know that this quote makes no sense. She could not even get support for our planes to be used--from countries that are under our protection-- to attack Iraq.
Whether she is a woman or not is not, for me, an important issue. The issue is that history is being made, that the policies the United States pursues now will have ramifications into the future, just like our past
policies  have created the situation we're in today. And, in my view, since the subject is the secretary of state, this woman, for the last four or five years, including when she was at the United Nations, has
been following policies that are designed, quite literally, to torture Iraq. Five percent of the Iraqi people are dead because of U.S. sanctions; that's just in the last seven years. The country has been totally devastated, it is practically prostrate at the moment. But, and here's something people in Washington just normally don't say in public: Middle East policy in the United States, under the Clinton administration, is largely controlled and manipulated by the Israeli lobby."

Bruzonsky (cont.): "I myself represented the World Jewish Congress many years ago; I am intimately familiar with how these things work. When I did represent the World Jewish Congress I arranged meetings on behalf of Jewish organizations at the White House. But I have never seen a Washington where practically every official is linked intimately to the Israeli-Jewish lobby. And Madeleine Albright has done something that nobody in history has ever done: she has taken a former Israeli lobby official, someone who wasn't even a United States citizen at the time that Clinton was elected president, and she has made him her assistant secretary of state for the Middle East.  It's an unprecedented situation, it's a terribly dangerous situation, and--

 Moderator: "Who is that?"

Bruzonsky: "The person in the White House? Martin Indyk. The person in the State Department--excuse me. He used to be in the White House, where he was national security adviser. He's also someone who, at the time of the Clinton election, was said to be overheard on a tape, since we're into tapes these days, surreptitious tapes, during the first Clinton campaign. Martin Indyk was named as a Jewish lobby operative who was in Little Rock, in the Clinton campaign, and [was purported to have claimed
that] when Clinton became president, Clinton was going to do what the Israeli-Jewish lobby wanted him to do. Now the person who was heard on the tape was not a minor official, he was the president of the
America-Israel Public Affairs Committee, the most important lobbying organization on behalf of Israel and American Jews, of course, they say they represent American Jews--here in Washington. You've also got a man in the White House who is the president's right hand man, Rahm Emanuel.  He was a dual citizen until he was eighteen. In 1991, during the Gulf War, he volunteered for the Israeli Army, and was in Israel working as a, at that time, a civilian working with the army. He's been working with the Israeli-Jewish lobby all of his adult life, intimately tied into it.

So, the reason I'm mentioning this is not because of my Jewish background. The reason I'm mentioning it is because it is important for the American people to understand that the foreign policy being pursued
by the United States, Bill Clinton's no Middle East expert, and neither was Madeleine Albright, is being pursued because of the very close Israeli-American connection. And Israel's influence on this country has
never been greater, and also the United States is essentially pursuing Israel's policy toward Iraq: let's not forget that it was the Israelis that first bombed Iraq in 1981, to condemnation from throughout the world. And they have lobbied for these policies strenuously year-in and year-out, and now they've brought them about.'

Moderator: "Bombed them in 1981, why? Bombed Iraq?"

Bruzonsky: "The Iraqis had a French nuclear reactor, Ozirak, and the Israelis bombed it. Of course, the only country in the Middle East that has weapons of mass destruction is Israel itself. And another of  the
great ironies of the moment, while we--" 

Moderator: "--Well, has nuclear weapons, you're saying?"

Bruzonsky: "Yes, nuclear weapons. One of the great historic ironies, as far as I'm concerned, is here the United States is saying to the Arab world, more than twenty countries in the Arab world, 'You may not have even the potential to develop weapons of mass destruction--any of you. But we and our ally Israel, will send Patriot missiles to protect Israel's weapons of mass destruction.' And last week, without too much fanfare, large numbers of Patriot missiles were sent to the Israeli south, about 43 miles from (Demona), Israel's once-secret nuclear reactor. The Israeli army, in fact, eight times stronger-- according to Jane's Military Review--than all the Arab armies combined. So what you're really witnessing in the Middle East is American hegemony, American imperialism, America pretty much saying to the region, 'We rule here.  We tell people what to do. We and our ally will decide the economic and the military policies of this region.' And of course, even with Arab client regimes, even our regimes, client regimes in Saudi Arabia, in Jordan, in Egypt, these regimes won't even publicly back our policies. They're too
scared to do so, they're too weak to do so.

I'm afraid this historic moment has the potential for, well, I won't go as far as Boris Yeltsin. I don't think we're on the verge of World War III; I don't think that there's anybody in the world who has military
power that can oppose us if we decide to go ahead with the bombing campaign. But we will be setting forces alive. We will be unleashing forces, we will be fueling fundamentalism; and the ramifications of that for the future, I think, are very grave."

Moderator: "Well, Mark Bruzonsky, again, director of the Jewish Committee on the Middle East, former Washington representative of the World Jewish Congress. As I said earlier we're also joined by Martha
Burke, editor of Feminist Faxnet, president of the Center for the Advancement of Public Policy. I know that you have a very different view of the U.S. Secretary of State, Madeleine Albright."

Burke: "Well, it's interesting. Mark's views sound a lot like a "vast Jewish conspiracy" is not only controlling the Middle East, but our foreign policy in general, and the probably world in particular. But
since the subject of the interview is not the Middle East policy but the secretary of state herself, I would like to pick up on a couple of statements he made about her."

Burke (cont.): "First, he said the fact that she is a woman is not important, and that the policy that she makes and represents now has ramifications for the future. He's absolutely right about the
ramifications for the future, and he's absolutely wrong that the fact that she is a woman does not make any difference. This Secretary of State has been the most outspoken Secretary of State on the global
rights of women that we have ever had. She has done things that I know no male Secretary of State would have done, or they would have done it; and one example I will give you is we are the only industrialized nation in the world that has failed to sign the convention on the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women, the so-called (CEDAW) treaty. It's been sitting in the Senate for over eighteen years. Several secretaries of state, of course, during that time have had opportunities that they did not take advantage of to try to move it out of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. One of the first things Albright did was  make a public statement directly to [Senate Foreign Relations Committee chairman] Jesse Helms, when the two of them were together, that said, "Get off the dime, here. Get this treaty out; it's an embarrassment to the United States, and an affront to women all over the world." That's one example; I can give you others. She confronted the ministers if the Middle East at a meeting, personally and individually, and asked them to tell her why there were no women in their Cabinets. I submit to you that a male Secretary have done this. She has spoken out on many other things, including the treatment of women by the Taliban in Afghanistan; and, in general, she is quite a good advocate for the Beijing platform, on the global human rights of women. So, whatever Mark thinks about her policies and actions regarding the Middle East, the fact is that she is an effective Secretary of State for half the world's population, and her actions do matter now for the future. And the fact that she is a woman is very important."

Moderator:  "I'm going to break in here to allow stations to ID themselves. We're talking to Martha Burke, editor of the Feminist Faxnet and president of the Center for the Advancement of Public Policy. Our
guest in the studio in Washington is Mark Bruzonsky, director of the Committee on the Middle East. You're listening to Pacifica Radio's "Democracy Now,"  and we'll be back with them in a minute."

(Program Break for News.)
                  ________________
 

(Intro)

Moderator: "This is Pacifica Radio's "Democracy Now: the exception to the rulers." I'm Amy Goodman. As we take a look at the policies of Madeleine Albright, the secretary of state, former U.N. ambassador, U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, we're joined by Martha Burke, she is editor of Feminist Faxnet, president of the Center for the Advancement of Public Policy"
 
Moderator (cont.): "Mark Bruzonsky, who is director of the Committee on the Middle East; and we've just been joined by Addite Akwe, who is director of Amnesty International for Africa. Now, most people may not associate Madeleine Albright with African policy; but, of course she, as secretary of state, deals with all foreign policy. And, in fact, she did recently just return from a trip through southern Africa; and President Clinton will be following in her footsteps in just a few weeks. Addite Akwe, what is your assessment of Madeleine Albright and Africa?"

Akwe: "Well, the trip generated a lot of controversy: on the one hand, it was incredibly very welcome, and a great step forward that she actually met her commitment to visit Africa in the first year of her term as Secretary of State. And also part of the message that was conveyed: acknowledgment and acceptance for disruptive, destructive U.S. policies in the past; and acceptance of the U.S. lack of response or the
failure of the U.S. to respond to the genocide in Rwanda in 1994 were all very welcome. But the negative part of the trip, I think, has been her policies regarding democracy and human rights. When she visited
Ethiopia, Uganda, Rwanda, Angola, and Zimbabwe, as you mentioned, as well as South Africa, the issues of democracy and human rights were very much subtext. They were left to private conversations; and for many of us that represented a step backwards from what we had hoped would be not only a strong message in support of reform, but also a support of civil society in Africa."

Moderator: "Addite Akwe, will you assess Madeleine Albright as simply a very good carrier-out of foreign policy set, for example, by the White House, or that she is an architect of that foreign policy in Africa?"

Akwe: "Well, she certainly pulled together a very impressive team. The new assistant secretary of state is Susan Reiss; they've got new people in the NSC department. But-- "

Moderator: "--The National Security Council."

Akwe: "Exactly. But, for the most part, democracy and human rights policy has been the thing that's been lacking. As you may be aware, there is actually some economic policy-- they're trying to drive investment interest and move the continent away from its dependency on foreign aid. In some cases that's going to have negative affects, but at least they are paying attention to the economic issues. The question is
whether she is going to put her stamp on the democracy issues and human rights, 'cause we believe that those are the fundamental ones that are going to either consolidate economic gains or at least help the
continent move forward. And so far we have not seen that, so I think, unfortunately, I'd have to say that she's more a carrier-out of the policy, which, unfortunately, is not very well articulated and is not
being very well implemented."

Moderator: "Explain the policy she promoted in Rwanda, when she was the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations."

Akwe: "Well, when she was there, reports of the genocide, or plans of the genocide, reached the U.N. in March. Secret government documents revealing the detailed plans of what was going to be the genocide got to U.N. headquarters, and the Security Council refused to acknowledge that genocide was actually happening once the killings began. At the same time, the United States was among those countries that voted to withdraw, to scale-down the peace-keeping force that was there, that was comprised primarily of Belgian troops. So there was a critical mistake made there, and a critical lack of acceptance of responsibility to respond to this United Nations challenge. Then, what happened afterwards was when they finally said that acts of genocidal intent were taking place--this was in May. At that point, there were delays and haggling over how much the peacekeeping force was going to be charged for using U.S. equipment. All of that served to delay the deployment of the troops, and of course contributed to the one million people being killed."

Moderator: "And what was Madeleine Albright's role in all of that?"

Akwe: "She was basically the key person who articulated those U.S. positions in the United Nations Security Council. The question is whether she fought an unsuccessful battle with the Administration  to
try and get them to change their policy; and unfortunately we don't have any sign of that."

Bruzonsky: "Amy, if I may, I would add that while she was at the United Nations--"

Moderator: "--Mark Bruzonsky."

Bruzonsky: --while she was at the United Nations, she was also the primary person who covered-up the Israeli Qana massacre, the first time in Middle East history when civilians under U.N. protection were
attacked and massacred; this was in April of 1996. Literally, screaming and threatening--

Moderator: "--in southern Lebanon."

Bruzonsky: "In southern Lebanon. Literally, and I mean literally, screaming and hollering privately at [then-United Nations Secretary General Boutros] Boutros-Ghali that he better not release the U.N.
report which proved that Israel had done so purposefully, rather than by mistake, and threatening Boutros-Ghali that he wouldn't be supported by the United Nations to stay on for a second term [as Secretary General.] Now we have a lot of information at our web site, which is at "middleeast.org," on these matters."

Burke: "Amy, I would like to jump--"

Moderator: "Martha Burke."

Burke (cont.): --jump in and ask Addite, because I know that his organization has a human rights campaign, vis a vis the oppression of the women by the Taliban government in Afghanistan; and Albright has been quite outspoken on that issue. I think she has been instrumental in preventing the United States from recognizing the Taliban as the official government over there. And when he says that she has not come through on human rights, I think that he is, perhaps, ignoring or forgetting about the human rights of women."

Moderator: "Addite Akwe?"

Akwe: "Yes. No, I would certainly agree with you that she has definitely kept what has been an incredible eagerness to jump in and support the Taliban; but at the same time, it took concerted pressure to get the
United States to have the War Crimes Tribunal in Rwanda, and, for that matter, in Bosnia, recognize and prosecute the issue of rape--which was--"

Burke: "Mmm hmm."

Akwe: "--a major tool that was used by the Hutu-based government that committed the genocide. So, yes she has, I think, she is to be commended for her work in opposing recognition of the Taliban, but she could go much further. And, you know, I guess we have to see what happens now."

Bruzonsky: "Yes. Amy," 

Burke: "She also has been outspoken, though, on the issue of rape as a war crime."

Bruzonsky: "If I may, Amy, before we, before this comes to an end,--"

Moderator: "Mark Bruzonsky."

Bruzonsky: "Martha made some comments earlier about myself. First of all, I think Martha's basic problem is that she thinks that Madeleine Albright is the secretary for women of the United States. Madeleine Albright is the secretary of state of the United States. My comments--

Burke: "And you think she is secretary for the Middle East." (Laughs.)

Bruzonsky: "My, my comments would be the same about the policies she's pursuing whether she were a man, whether she were a woman. She's not the secretary of state for women;--"

Burke: "--Nor for the Middle East alone."

Bruzonsky: "--She's the secretary of state for all of us. Now, if Martha feels that the most important about a person is that they're a woman, well, you know, she's entitled to her opinion. She also terribly
misrepresented me by using the word "Jewish conspiracy." First of all, I represented the World Jewish Congress in Washington; I was Phil Klutznik's assistant for ten years; I have been to the Middle East many, many, many times. I gave specific facts, specific names, specific evidence about how Israel has immense influence, and, I believe, an influence we should not accept, over our foreign policy, especially in the Middle East, since the Middle East is in the news today. My colleague in the studio--who I haven't met yet--is shaking his head in agreement. (Giggles.) So, you know, I've never met Martha before, but I think she might want to actually focus on real policies rather than the fact that this person happens to be a woman."

Burke (sarcastically): "And of course policies that affect women globally are not real policies. I think we've just put our finger on what the problem is with my colleague in the studio."

Moderator: "Explain, Martha Burke."

Burke: "Well, he's obviously denigrating anything she does--vis a vis the human rights and global rights of women--as not very important. Is this because this is not "guy stuff," and we've always had "guy stuff"
in the--

Bruzonsky: "Martha,--"

Burke: "--in the State Department?"

Bruzonsky: "Martha, it's too ridiculous--"

Burke: "Well, you can say it's ridiculous--"

Bruzonsky: "What you're suggesting, Martha, is too ridiculous for me to comment on."

Burke: "Well, alright. If it's too ridiculous for you to comment on, I'll comment on it. You're suggesting that anything she [Madeleine Albright] does in this area, that I am concerned about, is not important, while everything she does--"

Bruzonsky: "No. I'm suggesting, I'm suggesting--"

Moderator: "Let, Let Martha Burke finish, Mark"

Burke: " --everything she does in the area you're concerned about, which is the Middle East, is very important. I think you made your own point. She is the secretary of state, and must address many, many areas of global policy: the Middle East is one, human rights for women is another. And for you to say that this is trivial and what [Bruzonsky prefers] to talk about is really the real stuff, I think, shows a bias that is pretty obvious. And, in terms of your remarks about the Jews and what I called a "Jewish conspiracy," I think that came straight out of your remarks. If you take an unbiased look at how you sound and obviously feel about this, it does--"

Bruzonsky: "Martha, you give the impression--"

Burke: "--sound like you believe there is a conspiracy." (Laughs.)

Bruzonsky: "Martha, you give the impression that you know very little about the Middle East, so it's not something you should really discuss. As for women's issues, if the secretary of state is doing good things on women's issues--I don't know if the former secretary of state did. It is not my field; I said that in the beginning. However, the fact--"

Burke: "--That's right, and I think the [radio] program is about--"

Bruzonsky: "--the fact that you believe--"

Burke: "--Madeleine Albright--"

Bruzonsky: "--the fact that you--"

Burke: "--and not the Middle East."

Bruzonsky: " The fact that you believe that simply because she's a woman, and standing up for human rights issues that women are facing (which, frankly, I and most of my colleagues and friends do), is really
amazing at a time when our foreign policy is, for the first time in history, about to pulverize an Arab state in the Middle East, creating huge historic waves that are going to impact on us for a great time to
come."

Moderator: "We're talking to Mark Bruzonsky, director of the Jewish Committee on the Middle East, based in Washington, D.C.; Addite Akwe, director of Amnesty International for Africa, in Washington; and Martha Burke, editor of Feminist Faxnet and president of the Center for the Advancement of Public Policy. I wanted to ask Martha Burke about the issue of the embargo against Iraq; not the details of it, but the protests around it are that we're talking about upwards of, I think, a million children who have died in Iraq because of the embargo. Now, Madeleine Albright has been a very strong defender of this embargo, both as the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations and as the secretary of state."

Moderator (cont.): " And, I'm just wondering what your feeling is about that. I know tomorrow Bishop Gumbleton of Detroit will be in Washington, D.C.. He and fifty-three other bishops sent a letter to President Clinton decrying the embargo, saying that it was immoral. Ironically, they sent it on the day that the Monica Lewinsky story broke, and so  it didn't get attention, but there they were sending a letter to President Clinton saying [that] he was immoral for pushing this embargo. And tomorrow Bishop Gumbleton will be in front of the White House, involved with a protest, he's been on a hunger strike against the embargo now for two weeks.  But what is your, what are your thoughts on Madeleine
Albright and the embargo against Iraq?"

Burke: "Well I think Addite was right when he says basically she has been a bringer of the message of the administration.  She has clearly shown a strong backing of Bill Clinton in a number of areas including
the Lewinsky thing.  I think you may remember that when they came out of the first cabinet meeting that it was she and Donna Shalala who were put front and center to basically stand up for, stand by their man."

Moderator: " What did you think of that?"

Burke: "I thought that it was a pretty clever ploy on the part of the White House and the administration.  I was disappointed to have to recognize it.  It was in their view necessary.  I want to acknowledge that Mark is correct. I am not an expert on the Middle East nor have I presented myself to be one.  But I believe the topic today is Madeleine Albright herself and her job overall.  So having said that what I know
as a citizen reading the newspapers like everyone else vis a vis the embargo.  It hasn't been very effective.  It has hurt a lot of children and other people who personally have nothing to do with this conflict and in that sense I would much like to see some other tactics solve this problem because this one clearly is not working and it's hurting people that don't need to be hurt."

Moderator: " Let me give everyone a chance for final comments beginning with Mark Bruzonsky of the Jewish Committee on the Middle East."

Bruzonsky: " Just quickly I will have to be consistent I am afraid and disagree with Martha again.  This woman who is secretary of state is not simply a bringer of Clinton's message.  She is a primary policy
formulator who has tremendous influence.  I'd say she is probably the most influential person on our foreign policy right now.  Let me give you another quote of hers.  This comes from an interview with Lesley Stahl on "60 Minutes."  Lesley Stahl asked her a pros pros to your last question.  Lesley Stahl: " We have heard that a half a million children died, I mean that's more children than died at Hiroshima, and, you know, is the price worth it?"  Answer from Madeleine Albright: " I think this is a very hard choice but the price, we think, the price is worth it." Well, from the point of view of the Middle East five per cent of Iraq's people literally having died because of our policies in the last seven years and many many more to die in the policies that we're pursuing at the moment.  I think that it is very important for people to realize
that Madeleine Albright plays a central role in this and is very much responsible for this and I hope they will check out our own web site where we have a lot of information at Middle East.org."

Moderator: " And Addite Akwe Madeleine Albright's policy on Africa just summarizing and her overall as a secretary of  state and I should say that I think one of the reasons that Middle East is a focal point right
now of course is because of the crisis we are in right now with the US about to attack Iraq."

Akwe: " Yes. No, that is easily understandable and it is also understandable because Africa is usually  not even on the radar screen here in terms of policy makers here in Washington.  And I think in that sense Mark might be correct and, or, in some ways there is actually a common area in what my two colleagues have said on the Africa policy:  a.) she's not an architect because she's not  initiating a new outreach;
b.) she is basically carrying-out what the administration's policy is, which is more rhetoric than actual policy. So, I think I would just end by saying that, you know, there was [an] incredible sense of promise and hope when she came in to being secretary of state. And, unfortunately, we've not seen that yet; and if we're not very careful, the United States is going to step back from playing a key role in promoting
democracy and human rights in Africa, and we're going to basically see the continent lose yet another generation to basically repressive governments."

Moderator: "And today, by the way, President Clinton is expected to announce which countries he will visit in his March trip to Africa. Martha Burke, I give you the final word."

Burke: "Oh, thank you very much. I'm going to astound Mark and tell him that I do agree with him at least on one fine point, and that is that I am disappointed,as I've said previously, about her position, which I think is the administration's position, vis a vis the embargo and the so-called collateral damage, which is real people. I also agree with Addite in that there is great promise and hope--was, and is, I would add, for her administration as secretary of state. I think she's already fulfilled some of that promise, vis a vis women, and we can only hope that she will become a stronger advocate in the future for policies that we all as a people can agree with."

Moderator: "Martha Burke you're editor of Feminist Faxnet. Can you let us know how people can get this weekly news report that comes out of Washington around not only women's issues, but a feminist spin on U.S. foreign policy?"

Burke: "Yes, they can look on the web, if they're on the web, at feminist.com, "www.feminist.com," and we are under "activism." Or those who are unwired, and I think that's most of the world, can give us a call at 202-797-0606."

Moderator: "That's 202-797-0606."

Burke: "Right."

Moderator: "Mark Bruzonsky, you've already told us that the Jewish Committee on the Middle East can be found at "WWW.MiddleEast.Org."  That's "WWW.MiddleEast.Org." And Addite Akwe, Amnesty International?"

Bruzonsky: "And, Amy, if I may add the phone number--"

Moderator: "Yes."

Bruzonsky: :--for people who aren't wired--on that matter we are in agreement; there are a lot of people--it's 202-362-5266."

Akwe: "The Amnesty web address is "www.Amnesty.org," and the telephone number is 202-544-0200."

Moderator: "That's 202-544-0200."

(End)